Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Canon Again

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Star Wars author Timothy Zahn on Thrawn: Alliances and toxic fandom

In Zahn's latest novel, two of the franchise's greatest villains — Grand Admiral Thrawn and Darth Vader — meet and join forces

By Jul 25, 2018, iv:27pm EDT

Earlier this week, Timothy Zahn published his latest Star Wars novel, Thrawn: Alliances. The book is the sequel to his 2016 novel Thrawn, a long-untold origin story for his fan-favorite character, M Admiral Thrawn. In the new novel, he brings together two of the franchise's greatest villains: Thrawn and Darth Vader.

Thrawn, originally introduced in Zahn's 1991 novel Heir to the Empire, is a master tactician who attempted to resurrect the Empire after Render of the Jedi. While that storyline was wiped out when Disney caused LucasFilm and reset the franchise's catechism, Thrawn was reintroduced in Star Wars Rebels, and Zahn wrote the definitive origin story for the character in Thrawn — which could serve both the old canon and the new. Thrawn: Alliances picks upwardly the story, but alternates between an see betwixt Anakin Skywalker and Thrawn during The Clone Wars, and much later, during the events of Rebels.

At San Diego Comic-Con, I sabbatum down with Zahn to chat about his book, the claiming of working within Star Wars' larger story, and his thoughts on bringing together two of the franchise'due south greatest villains.

Image: Penguin Random House

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

How does information technology feel to be writing about Thrawn again?

Oh, it'southward a lot of fun. Thrawn is a great grapheme to write. Information technology was really like I was never abroad from the last books I did. He's a fun character to deal with, considering he's more antagonist than villain, which means the readers tin can understand him improve than perhaps someone like General Grievous. Thrawn has always been smarter than the boilerplate imperial officer, and he forces the practiced guys to bring their A-game to the field. Information technology's always fun to have the characters out-think each other, rather than just "Who'due south got the bigger equalizer?" or "Tin can lightsabers and the Force save the 24-hour interval this fourth dimension?"

Thrawn feels like if it had been written before the canonization purge a couple of years ago, or if you squinted a chip, it would serve as a perfect setup for Heir to the Empire.

Oh, I don't recollect you need to squint at all. I wrote him in these two books to fit in with everything else I'd done. So if someone at Lucasfilm snapped their fingers, and of a sudden all of my other books were catechism, and there would be no real retrofitting that would have to go in. It would all fit together.

Thrawn: Alliances feels more at home in the new canon, especially because Thrawn has been fleshed out a bit more in Rebels . Was in that location whatever adjustments for that?

Not actually. I'k getting to play with more canon characters like Vader and Padmé and Anakin, simply the character himself, I however see him as the same person. He'due south got goals, and he won't necessarily share them with you, simply he as long as you lot're going the same direction, he's happy to cooperate and assistance along the manner.

Fine art: LucasFilm

For the longest fourth dimension, the prequel era was off-limits. How was going back to add in those details?

I liked information technology. Padmé did not have that much to do in the prequel movies, merely they fleshed out a lot more in the Clone Wars series, and that was the Padmé I wanted to write about. Being able to pick up that character and have her be actually competent, in activity when she needs to exist, diplomatic when she needs to be. She'south a fun character to play with. Of grade Anakin and Vader are 2 sides: you have 2 hints of what Anakin will become, you can accept hints of Vader'due south by, and linking them together in the storyline was really fun.

What I really appreciated most The Clone Wars was that when nosotros see Anakin in Assail of the Clones, he's a younger, angry human, while in Revenge of the Sith , he'south more than serious, only right on the verge of going to the dark side. The series really showed off his evolution between films.

What nosotros've got is some of the aforementioned distrust between Anakin and Thrawn as nosotros have with Vader and Thrawn. Only it'southward a very different dynamic, because Vader isn't sure he trusts Thrawn, while on the other hand, the Emperor still has use for him, so he's limiting himself. Anakin doesn't have any of that background, and he's being forced to work with Thrawn because of the circumstances. So there's a distrust, but it's a different flavor of distrust, and both of them learn to understand one another ameliorate.

What was your approach to bringing together these two great villains?

Both of them have strengths, and the idea whenever you lot practise a match-up like this is to make sure they complement each other. Vader's got the Force. As Anakin, he was an excellent pilot. He can sense and do various things. Thrawn can see stuff that maybe other people don't: he can anticipate, while Vader can be the fauna force.

By the cease they are working more than or less together. There'south still a little flake of distrust on Vader's part, but again, he recognizes Thrawn's abilities and knows how to use them in whatever trouble they are facing.

This is also a younger Darth Vader than we've usually seen — past the time we striking the films, he'due south very much a powerhouse, but hither, information technology feels like he'south a trivial more reckless and ready to jump into activity.

Well, it's been what... 16, 17, eighteen years since he became Vader, then he'south not new to the whole thing. Just he'southward nevertheless developing, somewhat, and of course, he's got the memories of Anakin — who he refers to as The Jedi — to distance himself from that office of his life. He's got those memories that are going to also entangle things, and as we see in the prologue, the Emperor, on some level, wants to run across what happens when he visits some of those memories.

You have the planet Batuu as a central location, and information technology's the basis for the upcoming Star Wars Land, Galaxy'south Edge . How did that effigy into this volume? What materials were you able to draw on?

They gave me some of the sketches and descriptions of what Galaxy'due south Border volition be similar. Only I'one thousand not writing in the aforementioned era that that's ready. Galaxy's Edge is set up in the sequel era, with Rey and the First Society. I'm quite a bit earlier that, and then while I can continue the nuts of how the boondocks is structured, considering towns oftentimes don't modify that much physically, the people in that location won't necessarily translate from the volume to the park. But it gives a little introduction, and a lilliputian flavor of what it'southward going to be like.

Paradigm: Del Rey Books

When you started writing Heir to the Empire , you were writing without much of the globe being fleshed out. Hither, you have a world with a lot more established detail. How has that inverse your process when it comes to developing a story and playing inside that world?

The constraints can be catchy. I exercise my first laissez passer through things like Wookieepedia, and just make sure I'grand non stepping on something that's manifestly been washed. For anything that is not covered, I rely on the Star Wars Story Group to allow me know about what'due south in the works that I couldn't possibly know about. They assistance keep the constraints, but also keep the consistency, which I actually appreciate.

Has the Story Grouping significantly changed how the novels are conceived? Earlier, authors would mostly just pitch ideas to Lucasfilm, but this feels like a more streamlined process.

It does. At the end of the presale era, the last few books I did before that were largely relying on Leland Chee, the keeper of the Holocron, with his astounding memory for Star Wars, and of course [senior editor] Jennifer Heddle, the book person. They were largely taking that role. By expanding it into the story group, which also has fingers in all the pies everywhere, it's more streamlined, it's more efficient. People would ask about Thrawn, "Was Tarkin a Grand Moff at the time?" I can unequivocally say "Absolutely," because the Story Group didn't flag it as wrong. That'due south very freeing, because I know I accept less of a fear of running into a wall someplace and knowing these guys around the alert track.

This book takes place shortly after the finish of flavour 5 of The Clone Wars , subsequently Ahsoka leaves the Jedi order. Nosotros merely learned that the show is coming back , and that she and Anakin reunite, so did you lot have to set up your book between those times?

I didn't know that at the fourth dimension, only yes. The saving grace is that each segment hither is no more than a couple of weeks, and no affair what Dave Filoni does, I can probably slip it into the gap before the show comes dorsum.

The entertainment industry is no longer merely about books or movies — information technology's about overarching, coordinated multimedia IP. How important exercise you lot think information technology is to the fan feel to have that coordination, versus "Here's another adventure in this world"? It feels like these franchises are far more heavily geared toward fans than earlier.

My feeling is, they don't take to all interconnect with everything. But if you have a standalone game, information technology should fit the continuity. You shouldn't have Captain America in two places at the aforementioned time, for example. Just you also have to exist careful: you cannot have something unexplained in a moving-picture show, so explain it the novelization. It's not fair to the moviegoer that they'd have to find out the details of this unexplained thing somewhere else. Now, you tin deepen what's going on, simply the movie should be its ain feel.

What do you think this says for how fan civilization has changed since Thrawn was introduced? At that place'due south a lot of passion at present for side characters.

Some of that, we created with the Expanded Universe — now Legends. The thought was to have a saga that would fill up the gap after Return of the Jedi, where at that place were no other movies planned. I'yard certain building that — I mean, it was dissimilar. Star Trek had done something like with a lot of books in previous years. Only the thing with them was that typically, you had to exit the characters at the cease of the book basically where yous started with them. You couldn't modify anything — you couldn't accept Kirk and Uhura become married, and have that continue on in later books or something. You had to be very episodic, because there was non a timeline where people would read them all in chronological guild and follow the developments.

But [George] Lucas did a lot of that with the movies. Nosotros are not going to leave everybody at the end of The Empire Strikes Back the same way — Luke lost a mitt. He'southward at present got a mechanical hand, and is heading in the same management as his male parent, and that will pay off in the side by side movie. People are beingness changed throughout. A good case of something that has an overarching plot is Babylon 5 from the 1990s, where we have some episodes that are largely episodic, only all have this plot thread. I call back George [Lucas] started that, and J. Michael Straczynski continued it, and now we've done that with the books, comics, and games.

It's very commonplace now, with shows like Battlestar Galactica and The Surface area .

Yeah. It didn't utilise to be that style. But you're right, information technology is commonplace these days. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is following the same pattern: our heroes are where you go out them at the stop of this movie, here's where you pick them up in the next picture. There are conflicts, in that location are losses, and they're doing the same sort of thing with their universe.

How do you lot run into fandom every bit having changed through all that from the Eu to now? It feels like we've taken a toxic turn.

I think fandom in many means is following the trend in the world in general of less civility and more than toxicity. A lot of that is the anonymity of the net. People generally will not come upward to me and say, "I detest your books," but on the internet, they can say that because they are substantially anonymous, even if they have their proper noun. You're never going to face whoever you're picking on.

But you're correct — it'southward gotten very, very toxic. And it's bleeding over into real life besides. People say and do things in public they never would accept done twoscore years ago, because the public would... there'due south a certain amount of shame and disapproval from the overall society. A lot of that seems to have eroded away. So much of it is misplaced. It's just bizarre that people pick on an actor or an actress for a picture they don't like. This player or actress did not write or straight it! They did what they were told! It'south non their fault.

Specially with The Concluding Jedi, information technology seems like there's a very entitled sense of "this motion-picture show didn't turn out the way I expected, therefore it's the worst matter in the world."

You can go upwards to disapprove of something, merely going up into hatred is but wrong and wasteful. There are more than things in this earth that deserve some hatred rather than movies or universes or fan things. There'southward still a whole lot of slavery in the world! Let'south salve our hate for that. How about that, guys?

What role practise y'all call up a moving picture, or a book like Thrawn, has in leading the fans somewhere a bit more uncomfortable, equally opposed to wish-fulfillment?

Well, my job is to write a story that people will enjoy, where they'll be surprised or volition like the characters. And at the cease of the reading, they will say, "Yes, this was worth the 10 dollars and the Y hours I put into it." If I'm actually lucky, information technology will exist worth a second or third read. I'm non out to change the world — I'chiliad out to entertain people. If I provide some good role models, or if the characters help people through a bad fourth dimension in their lives, I didn't become into that with that goal, but if that happens, information technology'south just a bonus. My job is amusement — if I can help, if I can be at that place through a deployment, or problem in your life. If the book is simply something you remember as a skilful time, and that book anchors that retentiveness, that's just an actress, added bonus, and it makes the chore that much more than worthwhile.

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Source: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/25/17597478/star-wars-timothy-zahn-thrawn-alliances-book-comic-con-sdcc-2018

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